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Evolution Or God... How were we created?

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Nemisis

Another thing to bring up, and I apologize if this has already been brought up: If God had created earth, did he create the other planets in our solar system? Did he create ALL the planets, systems, stars, etc in the whole Universe? I have not heard of such a thing.

 

Even with all this evidence in Science, Evolution and what not, I can't help but think that there is a God. So, I am still torn on this.


calixt

I believe that one reason why I have mixed feelings is because the fact that I am...scared, if you will. Do you understand what I am saying. I am scared not to believe in God. I am not sure if scared is the right word though.

 

But, you bring up some good points. I mean do you really believe genetics have anything to do with the formation of your soul? That for example. That is a good argument for both sides. Some Evolutionists may say that there is no such thing as a "Soul" while Religious people may say exactly what you said. This leans me more towards us being Gods creation.

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Nemisis,

you need not be scared. Evolution does not contradict the bible. Many creationists insist that the universe has been created in 7 days - and they mean: 7 x 24 hours. But they forget that "days" and "hours" only make sense when there is a sun (which has been created much later, if I read my bible correctly....)

Thus, a "day" in the first chapter of the bible can not be the same as the "day" we are used to. If you are still in doubt, consider the light of the remotest stars: How long has it been travelling to reach our eyes?

 

There is another point you are worried about: Does man have an immortal soul?

If you study the bible, you will not find much support for this concept.

St.Paul has a different attitude towards the eternal life (read 1 Corinthians 15, 35-58): Our resurrection will be a new creation by the Lord himself.

"Soul" is a concept of ancient greek philosophers, not of the bible, but it had found its was into catholic theology.

 

If you don't accept what I wrote above:

Belief in evolution theory should not hinder you to believe in a human soul. Man* becomes truely man* by having a relationship with God, and this relationship is a gift by God himself which we cannot "earn" by ourselves. The awareness of this relationship may of course be called the "soul" of man.

 

Anyway, you need not be scared not to believe in God. God will not permit that you will fall out of his hands (read Romans 8,38-39 or psalm 139).

 

Calixt

 

*means men & women


Sarah81

Yep - I'm up for friendly discussion/debate. I'm a Christian too. However: that doesn't mean that I rule out science. In fact, I believe that God gave us science. He made us curious, so He gave us stuff to explore and a means of checking it out. It's cool like that.I'm not a scientist and I'm certainly no expert on evolution. I'm no expert on creation either, seeing as I wasn't there when it happened. Yes. I believe in creation. I believe that God created us.But did He create us *exactly* as we are today?I doubt that. It seems to me that early, primitive man was, if nothing else, a lot hairier. (He'd have to be - they didn't have central heating and all the other protections against the elements that we have today.) That, in my opinion, is just one small evolution. Actually, wouldn't that be more of an adaptation than an evolution? I don't know what the proper term is for it, but it's what I believe. For whatever it's worth. (TOLD y'all I don't know a whole lot about this stuff - hehe.)


mitchellmckain

There is another point you are worried about: Does man have an immortal soul? If you study the bible, you will not find much support for this concept.
St.Paul has a different attitude towards the eternal life (read 1 Corinthians 15, 35-58): Our resurrection will be a new creation by the Lord himself.
"Soul" is a concept of ancient greek philosophers, not of the bible, but it had found its was into catholic theology.

If you don't accept what I wrote above:
Belief in evolution theory should not hinder you to believe in a human soul. Man* becomes truely man* by having a relationship with God, and this relationship is a gift by God himself which we cannot "earn" by ourselves. The awareness of this relationship may of course be called the "soul" of man.

Hmmm.... This is sure getting way off topic. But this topic of the imortality of the soul is sure interesting to me. I thought I had found a big flaw in fundamentalist thinking about there being no immortal soul, when I realized that those who are not saved would have to be resurrected in order to be sent to hell. So I asked my pastor (Calvary Chapel) about this and he gave me the chapter and verse which confirms that yes people will indeed be resurrected in order to be sent to hell.

Golly, I guess I will never be a fundamentalist no matter how hard I try. The complete lack of logic in this position baffles me. I can understand the extreme caution that lies behind this attitude that, if it isn't in the bible then it isn't true, and I can certainly appreciate the fear of following the doctrines of men. But I could never believe that the Bible hold all the truth there is. I certainly do not think that it gives a detailed description of the creation of the world or even comes close to explaining how God created the world. I tend toward thinking that this issue of the immortal soul is another area where the Bible is incomplete.

2nd Corintians 15 describes the the Spiritual body which certainly sounds like an immortal soul to me, although I suppose fundamentalists would say that this is the resurrected body. But I think their conclusion is driven by an exessive obsession with making everything in the Bible perfectly consistent. The perfect simplicity of the idea of the immortal soul or Spiritual body which is subject to certain natural laws that govern its existence, nature and fate, adds a tremendous amount of rationality to the Christian world view. I don't think it an issue worth doctrinal conflict and division but in the privacy of my own mind, I at least require this idea to keep hold of my own reason.

If you will allow me to plunge into the world of my own opinion, I think that all living things have an immortal spiritual aspect that derives from the process of life itself, and is built stone by stone from the choices each living thing makes as a part of this process. But the question of whether this immortal spirit or soul exists and whether it is alive are two different things. Life for the soul must assuredly come from God alone, and thus a separation from God is spiritual death which is another name for hell. I find this much more rational than the idea of resurrecting people for the sole purpose of eternal suffering. I also fail to see any reasonable objection to my point of view other that the fact that it cannot be found in the Bible. Do you?

xboxrulz1405241485

<comment>Currently, I don't really have any comments, but this topic has gone from evolution, to creationism then back to evolution and God.I wonder where else this topic is gonna take us.</comment>xboxrulz


iGuest

I don't know if there is a god, don't know if there is a Buddha, I do know, things happen for what they are meant for. We can't explain how we were born, or how we were even put on this planet, but we can say, we are evolving. Maybe someone gave us te intellect to do so? Who knows. We are evolving by ourselves, by what we were given at birth. Someone can't possibly control what we are doing am I correct? I believe we are justified for the actions we make, and how it will affect OUR OWN future. We built this place ourselves, the only thing someone can give us is the small push to start. Whoever created us, didn't possibly mean us to evolve so rapidly.That's what I think. It's hard to base it on anything but your own opinion, but at least it's something, and you should respect yourself for doing so in finding what you might believe it to be.


half1405241509

I think we are products of evolution, but I also believe there is some for of higher power that guides us in a way. I've heard some pretty convincing things about how we evolved from amphibians what used to live in water but came to land. Kind of interesting to think about.


destinyblue21

I was taught that we was created from the same thing Adam and Eve was created and that isdirt, and not any apes, or gorillas or what ever they say we evolved from, but I do wonder since God create us who create him? ;)


kaputnik

This is something  I have been wondering on what other people think. Evolution, defined as: Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species. (from dictionary.com)

 

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Evolution theory dictates that organisms with biological systems change through time in response to pattern changes that affect the organisms, in the immediate or even the indirect environment. This essentially means that anything that is animate or has life should in the course of a few generations evolve to better blend in its functions within its environment. The recent outbreak of disease in India like Japanese Encephalitis (http://news.trust.org//humanitarian/) and in Singapore like Dengue; and of course the spread of SARS indicate how organisms at the lower order range (simple organisms with one or few cells), evolve at a much faster pace in reaction to even the most minute changes in their environments, then their much more complex counterparts. In reflection, it got me thinking that evolution is a process not only of natural selection, but also a designable and planable scenario.

 

We humans consider (and possibly rightly) ourselves to be the most advanced form of evolution on the planet. This since we have visible and tangible results of our evolution evident across the globe; and, because we are mostly able to control the environments in which we live in to a great extent. An article I recently came across (http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publish/article_9565.shtml/?gtnjs=1) tells of how the human brain is constantly in a state of evolution, and how major changes in the brainâs structure and makeup, and, possibly functioning have coincided with dramatic changes in human social environment. Like, there was a possibility of mass changes to the evolution of the brain when humans first began to grow crops through agriculture (defining a quantum shift from the nomadic thinking required to hunt and forage to the more settled and social shift to locational dominance through development of land and the harnessing of nature to produce food instead of going hunting or foraging like the rest of the biological environment).

 

Now, my thought is that: how about making evolution an active part of our lives. Perhaps we are geared to forge ahead with our natural evolution by making a conscious effort to evolve. Learning is a part of our everyday lives â especially so during the early years of our life. Perhaps we ought to bring about the thought of conscious evolution into human minds at the very school level, so that by the time children grow up, they automatically make an attempt to learn, they automatically attempt to make a conscious effort to hear better, see better, learn better, think better, utilize physical and mental human resources better. Perhaps as adults, the thought process ought to be self evident. As humans, we automatically compete with one another for resources from the very basic like food to the most complex like having the very latest in gadgetry. Personally evolving, may institute a change in everyone to collaborate â overcome world hunger â develop technologies in a collaborative environment instead of a competitive one. Perhaps it comes down to our very competitive spirit. We as humans are naturally competitive â so are every other living organism, and competition within ourselves as well as without is what drives the evolutionary process. So, how about we all compete as we normally will in our lives â but consciously compete to evolve. Perhaps that is the momentum required to jump into the next human realm of creativity and progress.


mitchellmckain

Now, my thought is that: how about making evolution an active part of our lives. Perhaps we are geared to forge ahead with our natural evolution by making a conscious effort to evolve.

Good thought depending on what you think that means. The kind of evolution of the individual described by Darwin lead to a socially destructive philosophy known as social darwinism. I also think it played a crucial role in the philosophy of nazi germany. The problem is that Darwin's theory is incomplete.

Learning is a part of our everyday lives â especially so during the early years of our life. Perhaps we ought to bring about the thought of conscious evolution into human minds at the very school level, so that by the time children grow up, they automatically make an attempt to learn, they automatically attempt to make a conscious effort to hear better, see better, learn better, think better, utilize physical and mental human resources better.

This does not sound like any kind of evolution at all. It sounds like the inheritance of aquired characteristics supplanted by Darwin. But on the other had there must be something right in what you are saying. Intuition tells us so.

Perhaps as adults, the thought process ought to be self evident. As humans, we automatically compete with one another for resources from the very basic like food to the most complex like having the very latest in gadgetry. Personally evolving, may institute a change in everyone to collaborate â overcome world hunger â develop technologies in a collaborative environment instead of a competitive one. Perhaps it comes down to our very competitive spirit. We as humans are naturally competitive â so are every other living organism, and competition within ourselves as well as without is what drives the evolutionary process. So, how about we all compete as we normally will in our lives â but consciously compete to evolve. Perhaps that is the momentum required to jump into the next human realm of creativity and progress.

Darwin's theory of the evolution of the individual doesn't apply to humanity anymore. We are clearly in the next stage of evolution, which is the evolution of the community, which changes all the rules. We embarked on this stage of evolution once we began to protect the weaker members of society and made possible ways of life freed from the immediate concerns of individual survival. How does a computer programmer compete for food. He doesn't, not as an individual. Instead there is a mutually benifical dynamic between him and those who do aquire food. Learning and human technology are all part of this new stage of evolution of the community. Competition has proven to be an effective economic dynamic for the human community but its proof is not Darwinism but in the improvement of cooperative acheivements of the human community.

Logan Deathbringer

To be a "Religious" person is not to say that you can't study, understand, and "believe" in science. To totally give up science and give in to religion totally you would become a fanatic and thus you would become a "cultist."Those that go to the extreme and say that creationism is true and evolution is false, or the other way around, are just unable to release their deeply ingrained religous indoctrination and afraid that everything that they have believed for years cannot be true.Now don't get me wrong I'm no expert on the subject but from what I've read, both in the cristian religon as well as the science I've studied, and the discussions I've had with friends and aquaintances and during these discussions/debates we came to the conclusion that has seemed to float around this thread. That "primative man" used religion to explain the world around him/her that their current "science" couldn't. As an example of this, and to pull away from modern religion, look at what we now call Greek Mythology, which at the time was a religion. They had a "God" to describe/explain why different things in nature and the world around them happened, then came along people like Socrates, Plato, and other such people and they started to use deductive reasoning to explain things, and such science was born.Now skip a few hundreds years forward and if you look at what we now take for granted as science and look at what happened when certain theories were first brought to the public their was much controversy. The whole problem here is that people have used Religon to control others, and as science threatens that control their is an attempt made to dispute the findings. Earlier civilizations made war in the name of their religion as a way to prove their religion was the true one and that their Deity/Deities was/were the real one/ones. Even today we have war in the name of Religon.Some may say that it has to be either science or religion...why can't it be both. Why can't it be that the universe was created in a big bang set off by some Deity that was playing marbles with their offspring. Then as man evolved the Deity communicated with the evolving civilization in an attempt to keep them from killing themselves and to point them in the correct direction and hope that doing so will save the fledgling civilization.Or you could surmise that we are just an experiment in a lab in a huge petri dish and to that scientist we are just a bunch of bacteria to be played with and experimented with. Or how about this, we are just someones dream or video game.My over simplification of everything is this, if you need religion to keep things in perspective thats cool for others its science but lets not force them to do battle any more then we should continue the battle over which religion is the true one and blood has to be spilled over a difference of opinion. The one thing that I find truely funny is that their are people out there that try to force science to meld with what their religion says happened.Well thats my 2 cents and 1 dollar rant...hope you find it amusing if nothing else.


stusrud

No, that was not to be funny or made fun of at all. That is good, it is what you beleive and you spoke it out bravely. I do aggree with some of your beliefs also. Thanks for posting that!


macace8

i definatly think God created everything. And those of you who try to argue with science and logic that creatonisim is false, I don't belive that science and logic can be used to disprove God because God created science and logic.


mitchellmckain

Logan, first I would like to say that I am responding to your post because I found it interesting not because I wish to refute everything you say. I have had so many people automatically assume this and obvious confusion results because they cannot see the validity of the refutations which I am not making.

To be a "Religious" person is not to say that you can't study, understand, and "believe" in science.  To totally give up science and give in to religion totally you would become a fanatic and thus you would become a "cultist."

Being both christian and a physics teacher I cannot agree more with what you are saying here in the main, but I would like object to final sentiment. Standing in between science and religion and absorbing the confusion, trying to make sense of it, is not a comfortable place to be. There are many people, even the majority who have little reason to even try. Therefore I object to calling people fanatics or cultists (even though many of these would wear the badge proudly), because I think they are far more ordinary than these labels imply. I am often surprised at how little of what science is saying is understood by the majority of people, including those who adopt it (science) as a sort of life philosophy or religion. Because of this, I think it has become a pretty common attitude to give up on science. People buy in Kuhn's nonsense about scientific revolutions and think that the discoveries of science will eventually be overturned, and so they believe what they want to believe. As strange as it may sound, I think that Star Trek has a greater following than science these days. People find it easier to believe in a well told story. For lets face it, the stuff of todays physics has gone so far out of the realm of common sense that it is far stranger than science fiction.

Those that go to the extreme and say that creationism is true and evolution is false, or the other way around, are just unable to release their deeply ingrained religous indoctrination and afraid that everything that they have believed for years cannot be true.

Indoctrination really has very little to do with it. In our society people make their own choices about what to believe and they change their minds all the time. What you are really saying here is that you think the rejection of evolution is unreasonable and therefore anyone who does this must be crazy or deluded. You are wrong. People can and do believe in just about anything for reasons too numerous to count. Reason is not a one way street, it is more like an infinity of parallel worlds because it must begin with assumptions, postulates, or first principles.

That "primative man" used religion to explain the world around him/her that their current "science" couldn't.  As an example of this, and to pull away from modern religion, look at what we now call Greek Mythology, which at the time was a religion.  They had a "God" to describe/explain why different things in nature and the world around them happened, then came along people like Socrates, Plato, and other such people and they started to use deductive reasoning to explain things, and such science was born.

This is too simple a picture. Originally science, philosphy, religion, art and entertainment were all one with no divisions between, it was the expression of the pure and innocent wonder, curiosity and creativity of mankind. You think like a modern man when you separate these elements. Their stories were not only to explain like a science, but to give them meaning like a philosophy, to inspire them like a religion, to express beauty like an art, and engage their heart, humor and passion as our numberous forms of entertainment does today. So we have become more sophisticated today with all these specialize activities to excel in specialized tasks. But confusion and some siliness results when we compare these different activities based on goals of one of them. Science is in the business of explaining things rationally and of course religion cannot compete on that basis because that is not its primary function in life of the believer. When we compare these in this foolish manner and force people to choose, I think were are in danger of becoming fragments of a whole.

Now skip a few hundreds years forward and if you look at what we now take for granted as science and look at what happened when certain theories were first brought to the public their was much controversy.  The whole problem here is that people have used Religon to control others, and as science threatens that control their is an attempt made to dispute the findings.  Earlier civilizations made war in the name of their religion as a way to prove their religion was the true one and that their Deity/Deities was/were the real one/ones.  Even today we have war in the name of Religon.

Religion has only been used as a convenient excuse for war and abuse when that seemed possible, but it has more often been simply ignored because it gets in the way. I mean get serious, where exactly was religion in the two world wars? And what about the atrocities committed by the communists in their cultural revolutions in the name of their anti-religious sentiments. Do you really think the conflict in Palestine is about religion? The muslims have always been 1000% more tolerant and sympathetic with the Jews than Christians have, until we decided that they had to give up their land for them. Ok, so what about the crusades? Religion was a convenient excuse for these barbaric conquerers of the Roman empire to continue their pilliage south, but the victims were often other christians. So people like to parrot this nonsense about religion being the cause of war, but I think it is time for people to grown up.

Some may say that it has to be either science or religion...why can't it be both.  Why can't it be that the universe was created in a big bang set off by some Deity that was playing marbles with their offspring.  Then as man evolved the Deity communicated with the evolving civilization in an attempt to keep them from killing themselves and to point them in the correct direction and hope that doing so will save the fledgling civilization.

Well, clearly I am saying that it really must be both, but we really don't want to turn the clock back and mix up science and religion back together again. In science we have learned that sometime apparently contradictory explaination are required for a real understanding of things (the photon is both a wave and a particle). But, on the other hand, not everyone can do it, so we need tolerance and even appreciation for people who are different.

Or you could surmise that we are just an experiment in a lab in a huge petri dish and to that scientist we are just a bunch of bacteria to be played with and experimented with.  Or how about this, we are just someones dream or video game.

Or a giant living computer created by mice to compute the ultimate question?

The one thing that I find truely funny is that their are people out there that try to force science to meld with what their religion says happened.

Yes this sort of pseudo-science is rampant today. We definite want to keep religion out of science. All in all, I think we see eye to eye. We definite need to find some way of healing this adversarial gap between science and religion. We need a greater acceptance of the true complexity of human life and take a step toward becoming more than just fragments.

wwheeler

I have a view that is kind of starnge to both the religious set, and the science set.I personnaly call it smart design.It states:That while planning the creation of mankind, God decided to let the human body change and adapt to living conditions around the globe. To accomplish this, he allow our bodie to adapt, and evolve, therefore, allowing us to survive as a species on about 80% of the planet that he gave us to live on...But, like I said, that is just my opinion, and could be as far from correct as possible.I don't think that God would have created a species that couldn't evolve from the base form that were Adam and Eve.-William


pomjim

The concept of a "godhead" was for two reasons.1. To explain the unexplained.2. To give humans the ultimate hope, life after death.As science has come to find answers, religous belief has dropped accordingly, naturally enough.So the main hope left for religion is the everlasting life idea. ('tho I notice even the Pope wasn't too happy about going to a better place!)Belief in a god is like believeing in Santa Claus, or the fairies.


Shadow X

I would have to say God because not even scientist can explain everything about the universe. Darwin's theory of evolution is also being doubted and anyway, at te beginning someone had to creata the first orgaism and it had to be God because he has the power to do this.


Kid Saiyan

Too True..Im religous...so i have to agree with SHadow on this one...and anyway...how would you explain miracles then?*gives everyone evils*


pomjim

Too True..

Im religous...so i have to agree with SHadow on this one...

and anyway...how would you explain miracles then?

*gives everyone evils*

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Well, what is a "miracle"? And have you ever seen one?

 

You cannot expect science to have all the answers YET. Understand that we really have only been looking for answers properly for about 600 years, so please give us time!

 

When scientists first started looking for answers, the world was regarded as flat, and was the centre of the universe. As I'm sure you are aware, that is not true, but it WAS true according to the churches.


sickgrrl723

the way i see it, god created the universe, but he lit the match that ignited the big bang... i believe in evolution, it makes perfect sense for humans and other species to have evolved and to continue to evolve... in my mind, the scientists have got it right, but there is a supreme being that watches over us all...