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Aliens: Fact Or Fiction Do Aliens Exist

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mahesh2k

Such high voltages would seem excessive unless there was a good reason (and I can't think of one). Insulation would become a real issue and you wouldn't be able to pack transistors close together with that sort of voltage (firstly it would short and secondly the heat generation would be huge).The Gravity constant is, as far as we know, constant (hence the name :-) ). Local gravity changes according to the mass of the planet. There are limits on size for carbon-based lifeforms - the Dinosaurs probably hit those limits. After that then you get into a self-defeating cycle of adding more mass, then needing more mass to support the extra mass...etc. The only solution would be to take to a liquid environment - which is why our biggest creatures are aquatic. Unfortunately it is difficult to see how technology could be developed in a marine environment - putting circuits together would be a real pain for example....



Interesting! never thought about marine environment. so those old dinosaurus in adapted form are still among us. like whale and others. i mean they are the old species on this planet. There is also one thought school of - panspermia, i think you heard of it. It's not much believable but if there is any proof for it then chances of aliens is more.

By the way you heard of RAEL ? though their cult concepts sucks but they do have a point for example, civilizations planting life on other planets. similar to panspermia but not exactly like that.

Bikerman

Interesting! never thought about marine environment. so those old dinosaurus in adapted form are still among us. like whale and others. i mean they are the old species on this planet.

Well, the birds are the last of the dinosaur line. Whales and similar (dolphins, porpoises etc) came after the dinosaurs. They evolved about 45 million years ago from a land-based animal - Indohyus - which evolved to return to the oceans.

There is also one thought school of - panspermia, i think you heard of it. It's not much believable but if there is any proof for it then chances of aliens is more.

Yes it is one of the hypothesese for abiogenesis (the start of life on earth). I'm not convinced by the arguments, but it is a serious suggestion. We know that there are organic molecules in space - quite a few meteors have shown such molecules. It is not inconceivable that life could evolve in space - a simple virus-like structure - and then be deposited on planets by comets/meteors.Personally I favour an earthly origin for life, but panspermia is certainly a possibility.

By the way you heard of RAEL ? though their cult concepts sucks but they do have a point for example, civilizations planting life on other planets. similar to panspermia but not exactly like that.

RAEL are a bunch of wakkos. They think that alien scientists visited earth thousands of years ago and created life. It is a particularly idiotic version of Intelligent Design.

mahesh2k

Only thing that convinces me towards intelligent design is that we humans are attempting to create single cell in labs. So far we have just managed to replicate it as per the current available news. If we manage to form single cells then it may or may not be possible for us to take life outside this planet. I heard that jupiters satellite titan has some conditions that are suitable for abiogenesis. If we can take advantage of this to form life then maybe panspermia could be in action.


Bikerman

Only thing that convinces me towards intelligent design is that we humans are attempting to create single cell in labs. So far we have just managed to replicate it as per the current available news. If we manage to form single cells then it may or may not be possible for us to take life outside this planet. I heard that jupiters satellite titan has some conditions that are suitable for abiogenesis. If we can take advantage of this to form life then maybe panspermia could be in action.

No - it wasn't replication as such, it was actually an artificial cell that Ventner created (ie he made the DNA, he didn't just take bits of DNA from existing cells).

The problems with this argument are many. The main one is that any designer of the human body was not that intelligent. Our bodies have MAJOR design flaws. Probably the best example is the vegus nerve. It carries critical functions (breathing, heartbeat, sweating, digestion (peristalsis) and more) all down the same nerve bundle. That is just dumb from a design point of view - you don't design several critical functions down one pathway (putting all your eggs in the same basket).

But it gets worse. This nerve goes from the brain, down to the chest, loops around the heart and then comes back up through the thorax to the throat. Why on earth would anyone design a nerve bundle, carrying critical functions, to be longer than necessary and to meander all over the place? The answer is that it wasn't designed. All creatures have this nerve and in early lifeforms the distance from brain to gut was small, so it was efficient to do it that way. As animals evolved they kept the nerve - evolution generally works by building on existing structures, changing them for new functions. So now we have humans with this silly nerve which can kill us if it goes wrong, wandering all over the body.

But it is worse - the Giraffe has the same nerve - so it goes up and down that huge neck....3-4 metres longer than it needs to be. Nobody would design a body like that.

(I could give many other examples of terrible design if you like).

The simple fact is that the evidence for evolution is so overwhelming that only religious zealots find a problem with it. These RAEL people sound like religious zealots without a specific religion to me....

If panspermia did happen then, yes, it could have happened at the cell level (or even at the pre-cell level) to produce the first life on earth. It certainly didn't happen when some alien scientists came down and created the creatures we see today...

mahesh2k

If panspermia did happen then, yes, it could have happened at the cell level (or even at the pre-cell level) to produce the first life on earth. It certainly didn't happen when some alien scientists came down and created the creatures we see today...

Agree. Looking at the flaws in design you mentioned the only defense intelligent design people have is this - single cell life dropped on this planet to let it evolve on it's own which is the reason behind these flaws. But then their argument of guided evolution or intelligent species monitoring or other religious blabbery will be trashed.

 

On sidenote, what if we monitor the abiogenesis on other planets where there is possibility of life. I mean if we interfere in the process of evolution then results are likely to be different. For example, species adapting to natural environment and artificial environment will give different results.


Bikerman

Agree. Looking at the flaws in design you mentioned the only defense intelligent design people have is this - single cell life dropped on this planet to let it evolve on it's own which is the reason behind these flaws. But then their argument of guided evolution or intelligent species monitoring or other religious blabbery will be trashed.

 

On sidenote, what if we monitor the abiogenesis on other planets where there is possibility of life. I mean if we interfere in the process of evolution then results are likely to be different. For example, species adapting to natural environment and artificial environment will give different results.

 

Indeed they will. It would depend how 'active' the monitoring was. Any interference with the environment would be likely to interfere with the course of evolution and/or abiogenesis.

mahesh2k

Indeed they will. It would depend how 'active' the monitoring was. Any interference with the environment would be likely to interfere with the course of evolution and/or abiogenesis.


By the way do you have any idea why we always make assumption that alien life has to be carbon based life ? i mean though we have no seen any other lifeform than carbon based but why it has to be carbon life form in order to be recognized as life from us ?. I came across many people who talk about only carbon based lifeform outside this solar system.

Bikerman

By the way do you have any idea why we always make assumption that alien life has to be carbon based life ? i mean though we have no seen any other lifeform than carbon based but why it has to be carbon life form in order to be recognized as life from us ?. I came across many people who talk about only carbon based lifeform outside this solar system.

Yes. Life requires long-chain molecules as far as we can tell. The only common elements that can form such molecules easilty are carbon and silicon. Silicon life would be extremely different and there are problems with the chemistry, so carbon is by far the best bet.

mahesh2k

Yes. Life requires long-chain molecules as far as we can tell. The only common elements that can form such molecules easilty are carbon and silicon. Silicon life would be extremely different and there are problems with the chemistry, so carbon is by far the best bet.


I never thought silicon has that potential. I guess i need to keep myself updated with evolution in order to get this stuff. Which source you use to keep yourself updated with evolution, biology ? i prefer berkeley's site or university journals but that rarely helps when it comes to looking up new research.

Iniyila

i think evidence of existence of aliens like ufos are just paranormal phenomena. A paranormal phenomena means that it's something unknown to us but why it's unknown? my answer to this question is that science isn't progressed enough to find out how this phenomenas happen. So is the existence of aliens a fact? i think due to lack of the knowledge there is no logical answer to this however scientist are trying to answer this question by exploring other planets. but i think there is problem with the way they have chosen to answer this question. they are trying to prove that there is life in other planets (as they are trying to find oxygen and water in other planets) but what if the aliens (:D) doesn't need water or oxygen for living ? when something is completely unknown you can't specify aspects of it. so i don't think we find the answer so soon an till then i will say it's a fiction.


mahesh2k

i think evidence of existence of aliens like ufos are just paranormal phenomena. A paranormal phenomena means that it's something unknown to us but why it's unknown? my answer to this question is that science isn't progressed enough to find out how this phenomenas happen. So is the existence of aliens a fact? i think due to lack of the knowledge there is no logical answer to this however scientist are trying to answer this question by exploring other planets. but i think there is problem with the way they have chosen to answer this question. they are trying to prove that there is life in other planets (as they are trying to find oxygen and water in other planets) but what if the aliens (:D) doesn't need water or oxygen for living ? when something is completely unknown you can't specify aspects of it. so i don't think we find the answer so soon an till then i will say it's a fiction.

This is what we are discussing right now. That aliens could be different but we area assuming as per our current knowledge that life that begins right now is from carbon. So there has to be some point for typical life on planets. and this is the way we assume aliens being similar to us or drinking water or breathing. Ofcourse it's fiction but the way we think in this thread is better than UFO conspiracies and creationism pun.

Bikerman

I never thought silicon has that potential. I guess i need to keep myself updated with evolution in order to get this stuff. Which source you use to keep yourself updated with evolution, biology ? i prefer berkeley's site or university journals but that rarely helps when it comes to looking up new research.

Mainly my own forum - ScienceFile. It's one I help manage and moderate and it is designed mainly for scientists or people interested in science. We have quite a few biologists so if I want to research something I normally start with a question there.
If I want to consult the literature then I used to go to the journal concerned but I recently came across a nice webservice called Mendeley which indexes most of the papers I would be interested in.

mahesh2k

Mainly my own forum - ScienceFile. It's one I help manage and moderate and it is designed mainly for scientists or people interested in science. We have quite a few biologists so if I want to research something I normally start with a question there.If I want to consult the literature then I used to go to the journal concerned but I recently came across a nice webservice called Mendeley which indexes most of the papers I would be interested in.


Thanks for posting the links. Good to hear that you have some good bilogist in your community. I'll keep tabs at this sites from now on. Have to check mendeley now, i think this one will help me as well. I was in search of such services. Thanks for posting the link.

mamer

Illusion is something that is deceiving the mind and the senses. Several conditions would contribute to illusions like wishful thinking, fear, belief.Most descriptions of aliens are very similar to the characters in our fairy tales. It’s the projection of our collective mind. No matter they look strange they still have eyes, legs and speak somehow. Those man-like features in my opinion prove that the image is a human mind made.



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