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Shahrukh

So I am genuinely sorry to offend you, but I must publish the cartoon. If you have a suggestion to make it less offensive to you then I will try to accommodate it, but it will be published, and the by-line will say that it was drawn by all of us - we have no intention of identifying one person.

I do have a suggestion. Why don't you do everything the same way, except instead of Hazrat Muhammad, make a normal, modern Muslim be angry at the cartoon?
That won't too insulting, won't create violence and relay your point more accurately, since its the Muslims that reacted this way to the images in the past.

Bikerman

I do have a suggestion. Why don't you do everything the same way, except instead of Hazrat Muhammad, make a normal, modern Muslim be angry at the cartoon?

That won't too insulting, won't create violence and relay your point more accurately, since its the Muslims that reacted this way to the images in the past.

 

But the same proble arises. The whole point of the cartoon is to say - look, this is not offensive and if you find it so then OK, but we will not be intimidated by threats or violence into not speaking and doing as we intend.

 

Now, if it is just a normal muslim then we are not actually making that point. We would then be saying - hey, we will not be intimidated, but by the way this isn't Mohammed honest so no need to get nasty...

That would be a complete cop-out and actually wouldn't make much sense.

 

I do genuinely appreciate that this is difficult for you and I get no pleasure from upsetting you - I am not a sadist - but we have already had the first threats a couple of days ago. I was discussing the cartoon on another forum (Frih-host) with one of the other members, and a young muslim lad posted a stream of abuse and threats, telling us he would behead us ..and various other sillyness....

Now, that is the sort of reaction that makes it necessary to pursue this issue. We are also pursuing the Christians, so it is even handed, but I have to say that their threats are much less in number and intensity.

You must surely see that this sort of threat and behaviour cannot be justified or tolerated? The lad concerned (I am a moderator at Frih so I had to ban him) will never see the cartoon. So what he is saying is 'I will kill you for drawing something I won't see, but will still offend me'. Why, then, is he not screaming at the national museum in Istanbul which has many images of Mohammed which thousands of people see every day? or the Topkapi Palace Library in Istanbull?

 

No, this is bullying and not only is it wrong, it is really dangerous. Once we let muslims get away with this blackmail/bullying then the Christians will get on the bandwaggon and threaten people who blaspheme (a small number already do).

 

It must be challenged and challenged and challenged again until muslims either start to behave in a civilised manner, or those that don't are safely locked-away out of civilised society.


Shahrukh

Ok. Now I get the point you are trying to make.But I don't think you'll ever succeed in it. That is because of two things:1. Muslims value Hazrat Muhammad a lot. They will break every rule, including freedom of speech or any state law, to get people to not insult him.2. To actually stop something, 3 things can be done, as is taught by our religion as well:a. stop by tongue (like I am trying to do)b. stop by hand (like they did with the 20th May by hacking one site and overloading the rest)c. stop by sword (and that means war)The fourth thing is to hold it bad in our hearts, and that is the least sincere thing to do.So, where as you think you are right to fight for freedom of speech, you have to understand that we ask of you to only not insult our prophet, his companions and Allah. You can say anything else to anyone else. Is that so hard to do?


Bikerman

So, where as you think you are right to fight for freedom of speech, you have to understand that we ask of you to only not insult our prophet, his companions and Allah. You can say anything else to anyone else. Is that so hard to do?

No it would be very easy for me to do that, because I don't generally insult people anyway.
But there are two reasons why not:
a) What do I then say to the Christian who asks me not to talk about, or draw jesus? I wish to talk about Jesus and I wish to debate his existence and even assert that he probably didn't exist. If you think drawing an inoffensive picture of Mohammed is bad, how bad is telling someone their God is probably made-up? Then when the person next door joins the Christian Scientists do I then stop talking about L Ron Hubbard - the 'prophet' of that religion? Just how many things will I end up not being able to talk about or draw? And it is no good saying that these other religions do not have the same rules. Some Christians thnk they do, and if they think they can get away with it, more will follow.

B) It angers me that you think you have some right to tell others what they may not write or draw. There is no injury to you - that is in your mind - you chose to invent injury. Neither is there injury to Mohammed since he is long dead and either at peace or whatever you believe his is doing. He certainly isn't going to be looking at a fairly innofensive man in a turban on a screen or piece of paper. It is the fact that you think you have this right, which is at least as troubling as the issue itself. It is the most ridiculous and pernicious, not to say malign form of censorship I can imagine. You invent a harm - (even if you actually believe a cartoon you will never see does you harm, I can easily prove otherwise, so there is no question that the harm is your invention, not a physical reality) - and then insist that others desist from causing this imaginery harm.
So, here's an analogy. I don't like pictures of spiders - never liked them, they give me the creeps. So please do not ever draw another spider or anything that could be taken as a spider, because if you do I will be harmed - even if I don't see it, the knowledge that someone is drawing a spider will discomfort me.
Is that reasonable? In fact the harm here is much more real than with Mohammed. I really do get the shivvers, there is no pretence. Clearly, though, it would be ridiculous of me to make that demand - let alone go to war with anyone who did draw a spider.

That is how ridiculous and how unreasonable I think this is. You (muslims) ruined the life of one of my countrymen because he wrote a book that you didn't read, but decided was not acceptible. 15 years in hiding. It makes me angry just to think about it. Unreasonable is too mild a word for it.

Incidentally I notice that the 'creep' has already started. It was just Mohammed before. Now it is Mohammed, Allah and companions? So already we have restricted more things that can be said or drawn..What happens if a senior cleric decides tomorrow that images of animals should not be drawn - you know the quran & hadiths better than I so you know that is actually what it says in some parts. In fact it goes even further - no images allowed at all according to some hadith..

No, I am sorry but I will not change my position on this, and the more I think on it, the more certain I am that it is the right thing to do.

fermin25

Good topic but how you have see the world?s biggest problems maybe are not all you have exposed. I am agree with the natural resources but the unequal distribution of money maybe it?s not one of them because how you see all the people in the world want different things and these different things make to some people to get rich and live in the high class and make to other study a good career and live in the medium class and make to all the others to fail or make mistakes or simply never have the opportunities and they live in the low class. Yeah this is a problem but I think that the only problem for the humanity now is to help to those poor people that don?t have any opportunity to advance in the pass of the years and better their lifes like the people in Africa where the slavism is still a practice and where the people is being forgotten for all the people who live good in the Western.For the problem of natural resources, I think that you are totally right because how we have seen in these years the oil is the power and the countries create wars for this natural resource. How we see all the people in the world need the oil to their cars or to other things so we can?t stop to use the oil from the nigth to the morning but how you say we can start to use some renewable resources. For example in Honduras when was under military dictators they built a hidroelectric plant who was enough to sell energy to another countries but now the demand of energy is so big that the 60% of the energy in the country is generated from oil plants which use bunker to work. This is wrong but build another hidroelectric plant is like $2,000 million dollar and the country doesn?t have the capacity to build this type of project because we have no money to pay salaries and the business men in the country doesn?t have the capacity either.With the deshonesty problem I think that we can?t do anything Why??? Because how we can make a change if the people in the charges experiencing the temptation??? And they fall everyday of course. This is the main problem here in Honduras where the dishonesty is the low classes and in the high classes but the main class who is the most dishonest is the medium class. The medium class, the lawyers, the doctors, the administrators, are the main people in make dishonesty and corruption and the worst is that if someone is know by corrupt this have the biggest chances to jump in the public charges because is more easy to some people who are out of the goverment system to use these people to their own interest. So this problem maybe will never stop because in the universities you listen to all the people saying that they will never make corruption but in the reality and when they get a work the history is so different...Violence is more difficult to stop this problem because the violence is inside the human beings and almost everybody enjoy the violence when there are a "cause" who allow the violence. So the wars will never stop because the real power of a country is not in the finances or in the money it?s in the army and this is the reason because in the world wars countries like Germany who had serious social problems a decade before the WW2 began to be the most powerful country in the world, not for the finances was the army who give them that power.So the world?s biggest problems are these and I am happy that you didn?t put to the global warming here because we are bored of hearing about the global warming when there is no proof about this. Your topic is so interesting and very good. Bye.


Shahrukh

No it would...thing to do.

Right, then, I'll just say bye bye with these few verses: The Holy Quran: Surat 9, Ayah 29-33:

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Mariam and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him).
They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths, and Allah will not consent save to perfect His light, though the unbelievers are averse.
He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse.


I hope the mob gets you first.

Bikerman

Right, then, I'll just say bye bye with these few verses: The Holy Quran: Surat 9, Ayah 29-33:

I hope the mob gets you first.

Charming. And thus reason vanishes and we see what lies beneath. Rather a shame, but not entirely surprising.
I, on the other hand, wish you no ill and hope you live a long and happy life.

I do find it interesting that this type of convesation, whether with Muslim or fundamentalist Christian, normally ends in one party sticking to peaceful persuasion, without threat and entirely non-violent in both word and wish.
The sad thing is that it is almost never the theist, but the atheist who does so...

Shahrukh

Charming...so...

I did ask you peacefully at first. But YOU said there is no room for compromise.
I even gave you a suggestion to portray your feelings without raising any violence. But YOU said you want violence. So thats what I wished for you.
I guess the Quran is true after all:

And We are not unjust to them, but they themselves were unjust. (Surat 43: Ayah 76)


As of today, I do not support freedom of speech. It leads to more bad than good. Staying silent is better in some cases.
Bear witness on the Day of Judgement that I tried to warn and stop you. If you had stopped, I would have wished good for you.
May Allah judge you justly for what you do:

And for those who disbelieve in their Lord is the punishment of hell, and evil is the resort.When they shall be cast therein, they shall hear a loud moaning of it as it heaves,
Almost bursting for fury. Whenever a group is cast into it, its keeper shall ask them: Did there not come to you a warner?
They shall say: Yea! indeed there came to us a warner, but we rejected (him) and said: Allah has not revealed anything, you are only in a great error.
And they shall say: Had we but listened or pondered, we should not have been among the inmates of the burning fire. (Surat 67: Ayah 6-10)


And I am going to stay silent from now on.

anwiii

personally, i think WOMEN are one of the worlds biggest problems. i mean, you can't live with 'm and you can't live without 'm. that promotes a BIG problem in my book!oh yea, and the struggle for world peace....


web_designer

personally, i think WOMEN are one of the worlds biggest problems. i mean, you can't live with 'm and you can't live without 'm. that promotes a BIG problem in my book!
oh yea, and the struggle for world peace....


hahaa, very typical from you anwiii, now after all that arguing in here this is the funnest thing i read in this topic :P . good work anwiii, now i will reply and say the opposite. men are the biggest problem in the world, you can't live with them or without them :D hahaaa.

Bikerman

I did ask you peacefully at first. But YOU said there is no room for compromise.I even gave you a suggestion to portray your feelings without raising any violence. But YOU said you want violence. So thats what I wished for you.
I guess the Quran is true after all:

I didn't say I wanted violence - that would be stupid and I'm not stupid. I don't think there will be any violence. The aim is to point out that intimidation doesn't work, not to incite violence. Sure there is a risk of violence but nobody in their right mind wants it. It is up to the person proposing the violence, not me. If you are saying that violence is inevitable then you need to ask yourself why you think that is - and a middle-aged bloke giving an opinion and showing some pretty benign pictures of Mohammed really won't do as a justification...a bit weak really...

Anyway, I am not going to persuade you so I will leave you to your views, but please don't start threads proposing world peace after this display, or I might come back to haunt you if your 'brothers' do turn nasty.
We decided in the end to do it as a website blog so if you can bring yourself to look, I'll give you the address.

WARNING.CONTAINS SCENES OF A MUSLIM NATURE...PARENTAL GUIDANCE NOT NEEDED, BUT MUSLIMS OF A SENSITIVE NATURE HAD BETTER CHECK WITH THE IMAM
http://forums.xisto.com/no_longer_exists/

(It is only just being built so there is much more to go up yet....including my cartoon when I get it properly drawn...the mach 1 version is no good...)

anwiii

personally, i think you both are idiots. i don't know why you are arguing about religion here. freedom of speech. sure. i believe it needs to be protected to a certain extent, but i sure as heck don't want to protect someone's rights to freedom of speech if the are telling everyone they are going to kill somebody or harm them in any way. as a general rule in society, i feel freedom of speech should be protected, but my personal beliefs differ. such as if i saw someone burning the american flag, i would do everything in my power to stop it. to me there is a fine line between freedom of speech and trying to make a point through insults. especially drawing a cartoon because you have that right to insult a whole religion.now i don't agree with declaring war on people just for insulting a prophet or a god either. that is worse than offending people through freedom of speach in my book. i am not religious, but i do believe all religions have their good points to them. i am not a firm believer in anyone who believes in any one religion either. it's very subjective to say the least....especially when a religion teaches to declare war and even kill those who don't believe or who insult their prophet or god. this is just ludicrous. and if their god and prohpets support the killing of others because others have insulted them in any way, then they are idiots too. talk about self righteous. i was always a believer in turning the other cheek or at least trying to get to a point of understanding why someone would be insulting. not declare war for god sake! not to kill or murder.bikerman, you aren't even religious so to publish a reigious cartoon to me is hypocritical. it's ok not to be religious, but it seems like you are going so far to say indirectly that you are anti religious and trying to start a conflict to show your own personal beliefs that are more important than any organized religious beliefs. that to me is wrong in my OWN personal beliefs for many reasons.Shahrukh- declaring war and you personally believing that another human being should be murdered for insulting a phrophet or god. insults are not violence but you are prepared to use violence and take a mans life? i heave heard you repeatedly state that declaring war is the only option. you know how SICK that is? ofcourse your god and phophets are going to be insluted by those who don't believe in them. this whole thread between you two was nothing but insulting when you both can't respect eachtohers beliefs. and if you believe in what you had repeatedly stated, i suggest you stay in your country because i don't any person with your beliefs that can murder someone living in mine. let's just take it a step further. just kill everyone who doesn't believe in your god or phrophets and goes so far to insult them to where there is nobody else left to kill and you can once again become a peacefull nation, ok?and if you continue your murderous talk about other human beings, you are going to upset me further...


Bikerman

bikerman, you aren't even religious so to publish a reigious cartoon to me is hypocritical. it's ok not to be religious, but it seems like you are going so far to say indirectly that you are anti religious and trying to start a conflict to show your own personal beliefs that are more important than any organized religious beliefs. that to me is wrong in my OWN personal beliefs for many reasons.

Nope completely wrong.

a) Hypocrites do one thing and say another. There is nothing hypocritical.

b ) The fact that I am an atheist is completely irrelevant (unless this prohibition doesn't apply to atheists, but I think it does).

c) My beliefs don't matter a damn. I state them on the site only so that there is no misunderstanding, not to make any specific point. If you read what the site says the only belief that is important is whether you believe in free speech or not. I do.

d) I'm not trying to start a conflict, I am challenging an attempt to stifle free speech.

e) You are entitled to your own beliefs but I think you should read and seriously consider the following poem:

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,

and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

 

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,

and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

 

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,

and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

 

THEN THEY CAME for me

and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

 

When they came for Salman Rusdhie I'm proud to say I did speak up. When they went for the danish cartoonists I'm proud to say I did speak up.

Whenever they go for anyone I will speak up.


anwiii

peronsonally, i don't know who you are quoting or why. i think it's irrelevant since you are talking about YOUR beliefs. and i know you believe in free speech. you have proven that by targeting a religion that you know people will take offense to with no regard to their own belief. she's very little respect. personally, i could care less if someone insults a prophet or a god, but i think there is a certain immoral and low value standard to doing something that you know offends people. freedom of speech in general does not offend people nor should it. it's only those who like that power who will stand by it, promote it, live by it, die by it, and offend people using it. when one has the freedom of speech, one has power. with power, comes responsibility. to offend people just because you CAN is not being responsible or respectfull.nobody is asking you to believe what they believe and nobody is trying to convert you. why do i think you're a hypocrite? maybe you're not. maybe you have no morals, values, or respect for other peoples beliefs including a belief that is supported by over a billion people.now personally, i agree with you that i DON'T agree in killing anyone who insults a phrophet or god. that is ridiculous. if i were to see that, i would have no choice but to protect against it, but i am certainly not gonna go around creating a cartoon about it or intentionally offend someone because i don't belong to that religion. i think that would be naive and very subjective.i absolutely HATE preaching. people who want to convert me to their way of thinking. religions are a personal choice. your belief as an atheist is your own personal choice and should REMAIN personal. not public. THAT is why i call you a hypocrite. because how can a personal belief be personal or even meaningfull when you start expressing YOUR PERSONAL beliefs in public? so in fact you are saying one thing and doing another. you are no better than those hypocrite born again christians who take everything literal. where in the world does it teach them to preach until they piss someone off while not respecting their own personal beliefs? so i see you no better than them.i have to say though...bragging about violence and war and killing people becuase a prophet or god was insulted i am sure not everyone who was born in to that religion support such critical action towards those who should be accuses for no more than being disrespectfull. but i am not from the middle east. i never was born in to the culture which would make their beliefs strong towards their religion. i can't talk about it fully because i am not them. so maybe i am missing something because of that and don't have as much understanding unless i WAS born in to that culture and the history behind it.but if you ask me, you BOTH are part of the worlds major problems in my book until you can accept and respect other peoples beliefs AND know that it is wrong to wage war any anyone just for insulting a phophet or god. and bikerman- you aren't the LEAST bit sorry for offending or you wouldn't be promoting your cartoon. that also makes you a hypocrite. don't appologize to the man when you know EXACTLY how you are abusing your freedom of speech and acting irresponsibly just to try and prove a point. to promote YOUR personal belief over another man's personal belief which would make you look better than that man.


Bikerman

peronsonally, i don't know who you are quoting or why.

Salman Rushdie wrote a book which had Mohammed in it (it was magic realism and Rushdie is a very literary author). A Fatwa was declared in 1990 and he is still in hiding to this day. There have been several attempts on his life, which is why he has to stay in hiding in his own country.

i think it's irrelevant since you are talking about YOUR beliefs. and i know you believe in free speech. you have proven that by targeting a religion that you know people will take offense to with no regard to their own belief. she's very little respect.

Yes, I often see this confusion. Why do you think people should respect other beliefs? Seems a bit silly to me. Go and look up the word respect in a dictionary before we continue. Now, if I believe I am a small green tadpole called Nigel, is that worthy of respect? Should you defer to that belief and treat it as seriously worthy of consideration? That is what the word means.Surely respect is earned not given freely to any and all beliefs, even the ones you disagree with? If you saying that you respect Muslim beliefs then they include the bit about murder. I hope you don't really mean that you respect that view, because that would make you no better than the zealots who do believe that.

I think what you mean is that we should respect anyone's right to HAVE their own beliefs. That is the proper way to look at respect here and it is part of my argument. I absolutely respect everyones right to believe what they like - that is a big part of what freedom of expression is all about.

personally, i could care less if someone insults a prophet or a god, but i think there is a certain immoral and low value standard to doing something that you know offends people.

OK - Mary Whitehouse was a campaigner for 'decency on TV'. She was offended by any swearing at all. So should swearing be banned from the TV? If not then why make an exception? Surely that would be imoral? Who is going to decide which beliefs can be offended against and which cannot? You cannot avoid offending someone at sometime and to call it immoral is both incorrect and rather silly.
Who decides which is moral and which immoral? People have all sorts of weird beliefs, none of which are necessarily worthy of respect and it is no duty of mine to avoid offending against those beliefs. My sister used to believe in the wardrobe monster. Obviously that belief was something she was better without. Likewise the belief that killing people who write books, draw cartoons or otherwise offend is a belief that everyone would be better without.

freedom of speech in general does not offend people nor should it.p

Oh yes it does, all the time.

it's only those who like that power who will stand by it, promote it, live by it, die by it, and offend people using it. when one has the freedom of speech, one has power. with power, comes responsibility. to offend people just because you CAN is not being responsible or respectfull.

What power? Do you think drawing a cartoon is an exercise of power? You have it backwards. Power is control. The real power is controlling people like you so that you will not draw or write what the zealot does not want written, and you don't even know why not, judging from your writing this far - that is proper power. The sort of power that leads people to turn a blind eye to atrocity and 'respect' bigotry.

nobody is asking you to believe what they believe and nobody is trying to convert you. why do i think you're a hypocrite? maybe you're not. maybe you have no morals, values, or respect for other peoples beliefs including a belief that is supported by over a billion people.

You are still using respect in a confused manner, which makes the rest invalid. Oh, and the fact that Islam has a billion followers is completely irrelevant - we call that a fallacy...as follows...Not too long ago most people on earth thought the stars were pinpricks in a globe surrounding the earth. Does the fact that a lot of people believed it make it somehow special or truer or more worthy of respecy? Nope. It is called the fallacy ad-populum - the fallacy of appealing to large numbers as evidence or significance.

now personally, i agree with you that i DON'T agree in killing anyone who insults a phrophet or god. that is ridiculous. if i were to see that, i would have no choice but to protect against it, but i am certainly not gonna go around creating a cartoon about it or intentionally offend someone because i don't belong to that religion. i think that would be naive and very subjective.

Nothing subjective about it. We are drawing cartoons of Christianity as well - cartoons of Jesus etc. I don't see what is naive about it - we all had to think about this, and the possible consequences, very hard before we agreed to go ahead.

i absolutely HATE preaching. people who want to convert me to their way of thinking. religions are a personal choice. your belief as an atheist is your own personal choice and should REMAIN personal. not public. THAT is why i call you a hypocrite. because how can a personal belief be personal or even meaningfull when you start expressing YOUR PERSONAL beliefs in public?

You are really going into la-la land now. My beliefs are not something I splash everywhere - largely because atheism isn't a belief. If you think atheism is a belief then presumably you think that not believing in Santa claus is a belief? It makes as much sense.Do you believe in the Gods Jupiter? Thor? Odin? Mars? Ra?
So does that mean you have 5 beliefs ?
We are all atheists - I just believe in one less God than most people.

As for expressing beliefs in public..see those posters proclaiming the Lord is coming? See the Church signs telling us the hour is nigh? I get insulted and preached at about twice a week on average - mostly by people belonging to one of the Christian sects. Are you going to tell them that they are hypocrites for spreading the word? If not then you have just realised what hypocrisy actually means. I don't knock on peple's doors and tell people not to believe. In fact the only place my atheism generally gets mentioned is in forums like this: which is actually what the forum is for....

I repeat, there is nothing hypocritical about my actions. I am doing exactly what I said I would - the opposite of hypocrisy.

so in fact you are saying one thing and doing another.

No, I've dealt with that already. I never said beliefs were personal - you did. I don't have any beliefs in religion - you think I do.

you are no better than those hypocrite born again christians who take everything literal. where in the world does it teach them to preach until they piss someone off while not respecting their own personal beliefs? so i see you no better than them.

So what am I preaching? Free speech? That is written into your constitution and preached by schools, presidents and authority figures throughout your country. You are getting yourself into quite a lather about something that most people regard as not only a good thing but actually a vital thing for any democracy.

but if you ask me,

well since you mention it...did anyone ask you?

you BOTH are part of the worlds major problems in my book until you can accept and respect other peoples beliefs AND know that it is wrong to wage war any anyone just for insulting a phophet or god. and bikerman- you aren't the LEAST bit sorry for offending or you wouldn't be promoting your cartoon.

As I have shown, you have a fundamental problem with your definitions and that leads to nonsense like this. You see I think that YOU are part of the problem. You have a confused understanding of respect, beliefs etc and you convince yourself that doing what religions tell you to do is somehow respecting their beliefs. So you give up one more freedom in the name of respect. Next time Jehovas Witnesses will tell you that they find mention of Jesus offensive unless it is to praise him. Then, because you have to respect their beliefs, another bit of free speech disappears. And we wait long enough and find that you have happily let freedom of speech become a distant memory - and all for some misguided notion of respect. Can you think of any periods in history where this has happened. I can, and it is frightening that you either never learned, or forgot so quickly.

that also makes you a hypocrite. don't appologize to the man when you know EXACTLY how you are abusing your freedom of speech and acting irresponsibly just to try and prove a point. to promote YOUR personal belief over another man's personal belief which would make you look better than that man.

I apologised because I was genuinely sorry that he was offended. i do not like offending people even when it is necessary. The apology was sincere but it carried no suggestion that I would change the central part of the protest. I offered to compromise, by which I meant I would have considered making the Mohammed cartoon a very friendly looking chap, or a stern but fair image, or a tall, or short image - anything to lessen the offence and make it plain that Mohammed was not being portrayed as a loonatic or a creep. I did not offer to stop the project.
Learn what the word hypocrite means. Learn that not believing something is not itself a belief. Learn that respecting beliefs is both impossible and undesirable - respecting the right to hold them is what you should be doing.

Learn those 3 basics and have another try because this is simply a rant based on misunderstanding and mistakes.

web_designer

now i think i have an obligation to say something. i live in middle east all my life, and Islam is the main religion in here. therefore i must say NOT ALL MUSLIMS AGREE ON KILLING OR STARTING A WAR, just if someone insult their god or their prophet. why? because it is a personal choice, that a human take, to commit a certain religion or not. either others do the same or not, it is their choice too. and islam absolutely encourages the freedom of speech and anyone say it is not then please read more. the sad truth about islam here, is nowadays, there are many doctrines and directions, each one of them have their own rules. and some of them, are really go out of the right way, they kill, they lie by the name of god. and this is a completely wrong.and i really agree with anwiii with a lot of points here, this topic is full of disrespecting to each other believes. we are all friends here, we should respect and admire each other beliefs. and more, we shouldn't try to convince others with our beliefs or religion. it is completely wrong and don't lead to anywhere, in fact it is the short way to lose friends and people's respect. therefor i never reply to topics like this. it is always a worthless argument that only brings hate and disrespect. and try to talk about the real world biggest problems in here.


Bikerman

and i really agree with anwiii with a lot of points here, this topic is full of disrespecting to each other believes. we are all friends here, we should respect and admire each other beliefs. and more, we shouldn't try to convince others with our beliefs or religion. it is completely wrong and don't lead to anywhere, in fact it is the short way to lose friends and people's respect. therefor i never reply to topics like this. it is always a worthless argument that only brings hate and disrespect.

The amount of wooly thinking in the last two postings is enough to knit a lifetime supply of sweaters.

Why do you think people should respect and admire other people's beliefs? Should I respect the views of a paedophile about sex? Should I respect the views of a Satanist on religion? Should I admire those views? So who decides which beliefs get respect and admiration and which ones don't.

Be clear about what you are suggesting. It is that: People should either defer to, or esteem and honour any religious viewpoint (that is the meaning of respect).

 

Do you really defer to my lack of belief in God? Do you think it is a highly esteemed thing and something which you should honour? I would think you very confused if you answered yes to either of those.

 

How can you esteem a view which you disagree with? Respect implies that those views are just as valid as yours but obviously if you thought my views were at least as worthy as yours then you would consider adopting them. Something tells me you are not thinking of becoming an atheist.

 

This whole muddled mess is part of the problem with society. You are confused about what respect means and where it is due. It isn't due to a view, belief or action automatically. It would be stupid to respect the views of murderers, rapists, and psychopaths - I think everyone can possibly agree with that, yes? So from the start respect is only due to SOME beliefs or viewpoints. But take it further. Is your respect required for a view that is logically nonsense or scientifically disproved? Should you respect a belief that the eath is flat? I think not. So the group of beliefs worthy of respect is shrinking. But as you can surely see, the group will end up as that group which believe similar things to you. You have your own beliefs for a reason - you find them to be in some way truthful or special to you. Why, then, would you want to respect views which were opposed to that or which you did not find truthful or special?

 

And now we are in the exact mess that the politically correct but hard of thinking get themselves into. It leads to mental unbalance and ultimately to a split personality. You are trying so hard to respect 20 different and opposing views at the same time that the brain gives up and you sit in a corner making wibble-wibble noises and dribbling.

 

Be clear - respect is something that is earned because of merit. You don't throw it at everything - that is to devalue the whole concept. If everyone is worthy of respect then respect means nothing.

 

You should not even try to respect views that you don't agree with. You should, instead, remind yourself that the other person has just as much right as you to believe and say what they wish. Respect the right to belief, not the belief itself.

That way it actually makes sense and we can avoid mass psychosis.


web_designer

now Bikerman you really like to argue with everyone. and if you think you could involve me in this argument then you are wrong. i was only stating my opinion. one last word, i respect others beliefs and opinions even if i disagree with them. but i respect the reasonable beliefs and ideas, like religions. not the opinion of a killer or a paedophile. why? because it is against the law and the mind. and from the same source i said that even i respect islam but i am against killing in its all kind. and for your information, when you shout for the freedom of speech , then you should shout for the freedom of religion and the freedom of thoughts. as long as it is a personal thing that doesn't affect other's freedom or hurt them in any way. this is all i have to say in this topic. farewell.


Bikerman

now Bikerman you really like to argue with everyone. and if you think you could involve me in this argument then you are wrong. i was only stating my opinion.
one last word, i respect others beliefs and opinions even if i disagree with them. but i respect the reasonable beliefs and ideas, like religions. not the opinion of a killer or a paedophile. why? because it is against the law and the mind. and from the same source i said that even i respect islam but i am against killing in its all kind.

So you half respect it and half don't? It is getting worse....
Also - beware weasel words like 'reasonable'. That is entirely subjective and essentially means - I will respect those beliefs which don't annoy me or which I can get along with...this, of course, leads to everyone respecting different things, which takes us back to saying wibble-wibble and dribling in the corner again.

and for your information, when you shout for the freedom of speech , then you should shout for the freedom of religion and the freedom of thoughts. as long as it is a personal thing that doesn't affect other's freedom or hurt them in any way.

I do. Have you looked at the site? We are quite clear that the right to free speech and expression covers the right to believe what you want AND that this right of free expression applies to everyone - especially to those who you find offensive, or you strongly disagree with. This is all clearly set out on the site.

this is all i have to say in this topic. farewell.

Bye

chini13

Now I come to the main topic again.......'The Biggest Problem of the World'

 

And i Suppose what is being done here now is a problem of the world...a big problem

We all are different individuals with different ideologies and there is a big difference in the way we all are brought up.As we become adults we choose out of them how we want ourselves to be presented.

I think TOLERANCE should be their to let the people of every religion ..every community live their own lives

Difference of opinion is there..and should be their because we all are different.

WD is correct as she is clarifying the way Islam is misunderstood by the most of the people these days due to few people who quote the religion in different manner ..(reasons may be any)..

Bikerman..no body i suppose is forcing you to follow or agree with any religious belief..(your posts are really long..and i think your arguments becomes irrelevant when you try to suppress others with so many words ;)..my opinion..u may not agree :P)

 

The issue here is clear as sharukh quotes...their is lack of tolerance for the different ideologies

Now don;t make it a issue by misinterpreting me as...im with the violence ..people who have the ideology for support of the evils in the world..

We all here are educated and aware of all these things..No religion ...no ideology if understood wants to support the violence..

If people are heard and combined effort is made to clear the difference of opinion..i think violence won;t survive..Think again.... :);) good and the bad is present everywhere.......and that is the problem...we should learn to deal with the bad...without blaming anything or anyone

Cheers :)