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mm22

I think in this system there would be 3 tanks. An input tank, an output tank and a ... middle tank.
In the normal syphon system the input tank is higher up than the output tank, but the pipe between the input and output tanks raises up higher than both tanks.
I guess the question is how can we take some water out at the top of the system into the middle tank without breaking the syphon.


OK, so in its simplest form this system would transfer water from a higher tank (h2) to a lower one (h1). The pipe (or syphon) connecting the two tanks though raises up higher than both tanks (h3) during the trip. Now we wonder if it is possible to extract water from the highest point of the pipe (h3) without causing the flow in the pipe to stop.

It is indeed an interesting question... now I fully understand the original idea. At first I would say that yes it is possible because for doing that we would only use part of the energy generated by the flow of water from h2 to h1 (which is what you explained in your previous post, i.e. 100kg of water ascending vs. 200kg descending). But, as stated by the original poster, if water goes out at the top of the pipe (h3) air must be allowed in in order to fill the space previously occupied by water. This air must be allowed down the pipe into the lower tank (h1).

I could think of the same "solution" the original poster came up with, i.e. having a smaller section pipe in the descending part of the pipe so that water could continue its travel after some water has been spilled out. I don't know if theory and modeling alone could answer this question. I could imagine the laws of fluid dynamics are likely to be involved, when we think of how the water flow behaves when it is "punctured". In this case there might be different behaviors with different speeds and only experiments could say if this idea is viable or not.

rogerthecamel

Yes, I think you are right. I mean I am sure that someone more experienced in this area might be able to look at it and give reasons why this wouldn't be possible, or know that it is, but given my experience I cannot answer that without trying it out.Although thinking about it now, I am actually leaning towards the possibility that it isn't possible. The pulling of water from the first tank to the top is based on the pull of the water in the pipe between the top and the last tank. To extract water from the top position without allowing air to enter into the system requires more water to be pulled from the first tank, and therefore would cost as much energy as pumping it from the tank in the first place. A smaller pipe on the way down wouldn't help either, as it would only pull enough water to keep itself full. The only possibility would be to replace the water taken with air, which would remain in the pipe and not necessarily break the syphon, but that would only work so far, once too much water had been replaced with air the syphon would ultimately end....On the plus side, with a water wheel this would be entirely possible. Water fills up buckets dangling from the wheel mid way, and then dumps them at a lower level on the other side. With this model you could work out how much of the water from each bucket you could take without stopping the cycle.


mm22

On the plus side, with a water wheel this would be entirely possible. Water fills up buckets dangling from the wheel mid way, and then dumps them at a lower level on the other side. With this model you could work out how much of the water from each bucket you could take without stopping the cycle.

Actually yes this would be a much better way to do the same thing, provided you can build a big enough wheel, and in fact I think this method has already being used. The whole idea here is being able to use some of the energy which is "freely" available by having an altitude difference between two tanks. Of course it is not "free" energy, but it is certainly a better way than transforming that mechanical energy (of the water) into some other form of energy, for example electricity. That would involve losses and create issues as to how to store it.

Although thinking about it now, I am actually leaning towards the possibility that it isn't possible. The pulling of water from the first tank to the top is based on the pull of the water in the pipe between the top and the last tank. To extract water from the top position without allowing air to enter into the system requires more water to be pulled from the first tank, and therefore would cost as much energy as pumping it from the tank in the first place. A smaller pipe on the way down wouldn't help either, as it would only pull enough water to keep itself full.

I think here you are forgetting that the pipe on the way down can be (much) longer than the one on the up side, therefore the total volume (i.e. weight) of the water it can carry can be bigger than the volume in the up side of the pipe even if some water is pulled out at the top.

But yes I cannot say for sure whether it will work or not, I so want to try it out now! Please if someone tries it first let us know :P

novic_1223

your theory is kinda off. In "theory" it would give you back some energy but it wouldnt be free energy becasue no machine is 100 percent efficient; therefore some energy would be lost. No energy is free; it always takes something to create it and it is never 100 percent efficient. % efficiency=load/effortthis is what i was thought but i am not entirely sure about it becasue what about solar energy?what is the load and effort of that?But the statement of no machine is 100 percent efficient is definately true!...think about it...


rogerthecamel

But the statement of no machine is 100 percent efficient is definately true!

Depends what you mean by 100% efficient. Technically all machines output as much energy as you put into them, but some of the energy output is undesired such as heat.Solar energy uses energy radiated from the sun, so it is technically not free, as it is using up the fuel that is inside the sun.
And there are some theories about obtaining free energy from zero point or vacuum energy.

I think here you are forgetting that the pipe on the way down can be (much) longer than the one on the up side, therefore the total volume (i.e. weight) of the water it can carry can be bigger than the volume in the up side of the pipe even if some water is pulled out at the top.

That may be, but the water on the down side is pulling water from the upside to replace itself. There is no way that it could pull extra water as the mechanism doesn't allow for that. If water is going to be extracted from the top without the replacement of air or some other substance then extracting that water is going to take as much energy as pumping the water directly from the first tank.
Take for example the following illustration.
post-79755-1240716667_thumb.png
The water is trapped in the tube much like a syphon but with no flow. There is water at point A where we want to extract it, but to remove it we either have to replace it with air which quickly means there is no water left to remove. Or we need to remove it without replacing water, which means that water will be pulled up from B and so removing the water will require much more energy to remove. The same is true of the sphyon.


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